Murder is the title of the tenth episode from season two of Way of the Master.

The Prologue of this episode is not included. It starts from the Intro music and onward, and thus will be timed as so.

Episode Walkthrough[]

(00:46 - 05:00)

After the Intro, the scene takes place in the 3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica. Ray Comfort interviews a black huge, muscle-man. The man says he believes in a higher power, but says that everyone has a God inside them. After that Ray takes him down the are you a good person? As Ray takes him through each step, the man does not really play along, still thinking he is a good person and blasphemy depends on which God is within you (but in his case, he claims to have said things like OMG). At the end, the man clearly points out that by Ray's version of God, the man would be guilty - but it does not concern him. When Ray asked the man if he would sell his eyes, the man says no way. Ray jumps on this and says that his eyes are priceless, but his soul is more valuable than his eyes - so why risk losing it for eternity? The man says he will not be judged, and is currently living somewhat in both Heaven and Hell now. Next, Ray tells the man that God gave him a conscience to tell right from wrong (Ray says the man knows it is wrong to lie, steal, lust, blaspheme, and kill). The man thought he already made it clear that he will not be judged, but Ray says "oh there is, there will be whether we believe it or not." Ray then tries to tell him that Jesus died for his sins and therefore has paid his fine too go to heaven, as long as he accepts Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. Then it ends there.

(05:01 - 05:18)

  • Ray "As Christians, we have a tremendous moral responsibilities towards the lost. We are like doctors with a cure for cancer. Like fireman, saving people from a burning building. The Apostle Paul said 'pray for me, that pardons may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly and speak as I ought to speak.'"

As Christians, they have nothing. Since God does not exist, they have no particular responsibility to promote their unprovable religion. All Christians, and theists in general, are just salesmen selling an invisible product. Ray is implying that Christians have a duty to get out there and start selling, yet they have nothing to offer except a book of fantasies and extraordinary fairy tales, and the claim that if you believe in all of this without evidence you get treasure in the afterlife! Incidentally if those targeted by Ray Comfort and his supporters respond by buying material Comfort sells then Ray Comfort gets profit and treasure in this life.

(05:19 - 06:06)

  • Kirk "You know, I used to be an evangelist chicken. I was a Christian who wanted to share my faith with other people, especially my family and my good friends. But I did not know what to say. I was afraid that I may say the wrong thing or I would not be able to answer difficult questions, and I certainly did not want to offend anyone, and the last thing that I wanted was to look at me like I was some kind of religious fanatic. So consequently, I kinda resorted to a style of sort of friendship evangelism and was never articulating the gospel to people. But the truth is, it is not becoming friends with someone that will save them, it is the gospel that is the power of God to salvation. And I learned that ultimately, we never know when a persons life is going to end. We can make friends with people very quickly, and ultimately we need to share the gospel with people."

What Kirk remains today is more like a evangelist liar. Kirk said that he did not want to offend people, but he does that now when he severely criticises other Christians for portraying God in a way that does not match his way. Based on this, Kirk points the finger at them and tells them they are guilty of idolatry. Kirk also helped Ray promote massed produced copies of Charles Darwin's Origin of Species laced with creationist lies and cutting out part of the original text - all these lies done in the name of Christianity.

(06:07 - 06:36)

  • Ray "It does not matter if you are an evangelist chick or rooster, I was like a bull in a china shop. Really, I had so much enthusiasm, I had zeal without knowledge - and I did some tremendous damage. Well, what is wrong with zeal without knowledge? Well, would you like your brain surgeon to have zeal but no knowledge? 'yeah, I am excited about this but I don't know what I am doing.' So we can do some tremendous damage if we do not know what we are doing. We are here to teach you about some biblical principles - especially laying a foundation of the use of the law in evangelism."

And even today, Ray causes a lot of damage due to his lack of knowledge. For instance, he continues to this day to lie about science (particularly the theory of evolution). Ray has no knowledge of real science based on the Scientific method, and only further damages himself and his audience based on his lack of knowledge. To make things worse, when scientific people often correct him, he refuses to listen or learn and remains wilfully ignorant. Who is superior, the man who remains arrogant and wrong, or the man who humbles himself to listen?

It even gets worse, Ray has a very low knowledge of what is own holy book teaches, Ray and Kirk cherry pick what they want. Whenever Ray or Kirk use the are you a good person? they further demonstrate their lack of knowledge what Scripture actually teaches. There is no law at ll forbidding all lying, blaspheming is taking a false oath under Yahweh (not saying OMG), and children are not accountable for petty offenses.

(06:37 - 08:35)

  • Kirk "The way that Jesus taught about the things of God was radically different from what I learned in my discipleship evangelism course. An example is in Mark 10. And there is says that the rich young ruler came running out to Jesus, got down to his knees, and said 'good master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' Now I do not know about you, but if that ever happen to me - someone just ran up to me and asked me that question - I would be very excited, this was an opportunity of a lifetime. But notice what Jesus said, notice that he did not address his fellows feelings, notice that he did not say 'oh, my friend I am so glad you asked. Listen, you have a God-shaped hole in your heart that only I can fill and in a little while, I am gong to die on a cross, and if you jut believe in me and say this prayer, you will be forgiven of you sins and have eternal life.' No, Jesus did no say that. Listen to what he said. He said, 'why do you call me good? There is none good except one. And that is God.' So he corrected this man's understanding what good was. And then he directed him to the Ten Commandments. He gave him five of them, 'you know the Commandments; you shall not lie, you shall not steal, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, honor your mother and father.' And the man said he had kept all these things since his youth. And then he pointed him to the essence of the first and second Commandments, told him he lacked one thing: he must go and sell all his goods to the poor and then he will have treasure in Heaven, and then come follow Jesus. The man went away very sad, what Jesus did was pointing out that his God was his money,and you cannot serve both God and money.

Ray and Kirk show no signs of eagerness to sell their luxurious worldly possessions and give to the poor. Kirk, who said this is estimated to make $ 20 Million, the time interval is unclear but that certainly is a great deal of money. [1]

Now when I read that passage, I scratched my head and thinking what was Jesus doing? I mean, he did not go through the four steps that I was taught to go through. It seemed that Jesus could have really benefited from a friendship evangelism course. But that was my immature understanding of what he was doing - using a principle that was extremely effective and necessary to prepare a sinners heart for the race of the gospel."

“All four gospels are anonymous texts. The familiar attributions of the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John come from the mid-second century and later and we have no good historical reason to accept these attributions.” -Steve Mason, professor of classics, history and religious studies at York University in Toronto (Bible Review, Feb. 2000, p. 36)

“The question must also be raised as to whether we have the actual words of Jesus in any Gospel.” -Bishop John Shelby Spong

Ray and Kirk and WOTM can go on and on about what they believe Jesus said or did, but this is all belief. There is no solid evidence to show that Jesus said or did any of these things, in fact the historical evidence for Jesus' existence is surprisingly lacking - considering this is supposed to be the son of God and stirring up a lot of people in Jerusalem.

If Jesus existed he was a partially educated first century wandering preacher and may have been less effective than those who have done a modern evangelism friendship course.

(08:36 - 08:50)

  • Ray "Kirk, the Apostle Paul often spoke of this principle, he said 'by the law is the knowledge of sin.' He said he had not known sin by the law, he said the law is schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. And Timothy said the law is good if it is used lawfully to bring for the purpose for which it was designed."

Timothy did not say anything. Why? Because Timothy never wrote that book. The vast majority of critical Bible scholars all agree that both 1 and 2 Timothy are written by forgers.

WOTM shows a stone tablet that says Thou Shall not Murder."

(09:00 - 09:03)

  • Ray "Today, we are going to look a the sixth of the Ten Commandments."

(09:04 - 09:18)

  • Kirk "You shall not kill. And most of us think that we are innocent to that one, we have not killed anybody. But Jesus took it a step further, and he said that from God's point of view, if we are angry at our brothers without cause, we are in danger of Judgment."

You shall not Kill? A moment ago, WOTM showed the Stone Tablet saying "Thou Shall Not Murder." There is a fine line between killing and murder. For instance, our court systems have various degrees of murder and manslaughter. A person who accidentally hits someone with their car is not the same as intentionally killing someone in their sleep.

So if a person gets angry, they are murderers? Then how do you explain Jesus looking at his disciples in anger in Mark 3:5? People might be forgiven for refering to Ray and Kirk's material as baloney.

(09:19 - 10:14)

  • Ray "and Scriptures says whoever hates his brother IS a murderer. Kinda heavy. But you know, civil law is the same. If you conspire in your heart to assassinate the President of the United States, you are violating civil law. But civil law is actually limited, it cannot see the thought life - but God's law can. God requires truth in the inward parts, and Scriptures say 'he who formed the eye also sees?' And God has the genius to create the human eye, so surely he can see. And the Scriptures say that God created the human mind, he created the brain, and obviously God can see the thought life, he can see the motive and he considers hatred to be the same as murder. But if you think about it like this, some people would like to kill someone. They say 'I hate that guy, I could kill him.' But the do not refrain from murder by the goodness of their heart, they refrain because of the fear of getting caught. And God considers that hatred to be murder regardless of other factors.

As stated above if he existed at all Jesus was a partly educated 1st Century wandering preacher, without superior wisdom. Those who take the whole of the Bible literally have a struggle make some type of sense with those parts that appear to lack superior wisdom. The text does not mention wanting to kill anyone it says nothing about why a person controls temptation to harm a hated person, it just says that hatred is equivalent to murder. If a new religion came up with a supposed sacred text containing material like that people would be inclined to call it an irrational cult.

Questions and Objections[]

(10:34 - 11:41)

  • Kirk "What do you say to somebody who says to you that they know they have sinned, but they are not worried because they believe that God is very forgiving. Well, these people's problem is that they have a misunderstanding of the nature of God's justice and his requirement of a sacrifice for their sins. You see, God is forgiving, but only towards those who repent of their sins. Forgiveness hinges on repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Ask the person if they died tonight, where do they think they will go? If they say Heaven, then take them through the Commandments and show them that they have violated God's law, and angered him in the process. And show them that they need a payment for their sins. 2,000 years ago, Jesus died on the Cross for their sins, and the Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. If this does not concern them, plead with them about their eternal security, of the threat of eternal damnation and the biblical definition of Hell. Ask them to come to their senses because tomorrow is never guaranteed."

"of the threat of eternal damnation" we checked several times, Kirk specifically says the word "threat." So here Kirk admits it himself. Christians "plead" with people over the "threat" of Hell. Often Christians say that telling people they are going to Hell is a warning, not a threat, well Kirk here just demonstrated that it is indeed a threat.

Biblical definition of Hell? Not even Kirk knows what it means, or the history of how the concept of Hell came to be, it is mostly a recycling reconstruction of the Greek myth Hades. The word Hell appears at least 54 times in the King James Version of the bible, at least 31 times in the Old Testament from the Hebrew Word Sheol or and at least 23 times in the New Testament from the Greek words Hades, Gehenna or as it is in 2nd Peter Chapter 2 verse 4 the word tartaroō (Tartaros/Tartarus). Tartaroō appears only once, Sheal simply means in the earth, a grave.

"Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins" Requires a blood sacrifice, sounds a bit Aztec. Aztec mythology stated that the gods demanded sacrifice because the gods did not bleed. But if gods already don't bleed, why would they WANT blood? Why would they WANT to bleed? Isn't bleeding a BAD thing? Why would an eternal deity require blood of a creature on some random planet in the far dark corner of one of the billions of universes? Does god require sacrifice for salvation? Does god like human sacrifice? If you ask the Jews, the people who study the law carefully, strictly say absolutely not. Apparently, God wants humans to pray for forgiveness, and it is prayer that replaces the sacrifices, just as God commands in Hosea 14:2 - "Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips."

(Please note that many Christian translations intentionally mistranslate this passage. The Hebrew is quite clear, "Pa-reem S'fa-tay-nu, the bulls of our lips." Instead they mistranslate the Hebrew as if it said, "Pay-rote S'fa-tay-nu, the fruit of our lips." This means that for the specific purpose of misrepresenting what the Bible says, that God accepts prayer in place of sacrifices, they change the word of God!)

(11:42 - 12:50)

  • Ray "A good line of reasoning to use with a godless person is to tell them that during the 1990's in the U.S. alone there were 200,000 murders. That is one ten year period, from 1990 to the year 2000 - 200,000 people in the U.S. were strangled, shot or stabbed, or murdered in some way. And yet, FBI statistics tells us that about 100,000 of them were brought to justice. That means there are 100,000 people who got away with murder. They committed the perfect crime. Now think of this, what would you think of a judge who turned a blind eye to a murderer? He knew they were guilty, but did not seek to turn them to justice. Well, that judge is therefore guilty of transgression himself, he is corrupt and should be brought to justice himself. So if God is going to turn a blind eye to 100,000 murderers, then God is unjust. So it makes sense that God should punish murderers, that he should have pointed them to the day he judged the world based on righteousness, and murderers will be brought before God on Judgment. But the Scriptures warn that God will judge right down to the intents of man's heart. Right down to that hatred, that murder that dwells within the human heart.

"A good line of reasoning to use with a godless person", that does not look like a sound argument. Why tell this to a godless person when the United States is the most religious industrialized nation? Blaming murder on godlessness would be demonstrably false, to understand why let’s compare the United States (a heavily religious nation) with a secular nation like Sweden or Denmark. Sociologist Phil Zuckerman spent fourteen months in both Sweden and Denmark interviewing people, and discovered that both nations were the least religious in Europe (possibly the entire world). The first thing that Zuckerman noticed upon arriving in Arhus, Denmark, was that there were no cops. He saw no police cars, no officers patrolling on foot or motorcycle. A grand total of thirty-one days passed before seeing his first police presence. In 2004, the total number off murders in Aarhus, a bustling metropolis of a quarter of a million people..... was one murder.

Based on this at least using the gospel does not minimize crime rates and a godless person who is concerned to prevent or reduce murder will quite likely decide religion is not the way to go about that. Further religion is not needed to provide happiness and meaningfulness. A survey of happiness in ninety-one nations shows that Denmark is ranked number one.(Source: "Something's Happy in the State of Denmark," Los Angeles Times, June 19, 2006)

Since all of these 200,000 murders take place in the United States, it is more of a problem for theists like Ray Comfort. The USA is strongly Christian, and yet it has more murders than secular countries.

Sadly Ray and Kirk try to convince ordinary people that they are in danger of Hell as a murderer would be but fail to address what can really reduce crime. Why is crime such a problem in the United States? Part of the reason is people on the religious right who focus on their view of religion and pay relatively little attention to valid ways of reducing crime.

Street Interviews: One 2 one[]

(13:04 - 16:26)

Ray interviews two ladies in the 3rd Street Promenade. Ray first makes them describe their perception of god (kind and forgiving). Ray asked if they think God is angry with humanity? When they say no, Ray points out that 100,000 murderers got of free in the United States, and then asked them if God is angry with murderers? They say God may be more disappointed, but Hell is were justice is served. Ray does not go any further, instead Ray asks the ladies if God is just enough to punish murderers, should he punish rapists? When they say yes, Ray asks about thieves and liars? They said it really depends. Ray, again, does not go further into it and asks about adulterers? The ladies say definitely. Ray points out that their Hell is a place for murderers, rapists and adulterers, but not for thieves and liars. The ladies say that stealing is not all the same: stealing a small object is different from stealing someones integrity. The scene switches to Ray talking about Revelations 21:8 -which says ALL liars and thieves have their part in the lake of fire.

Exodus 1 – 18 and following has midwives lying to protect boys born to the Israelites and God rewards them for this. Are those midwives included in the lake of fire? That is just one example of Bible sanctioned lying. [2]

Ray says the only way you get into Heaven is to not sin and be perfect, since God is perfect, and no person on earth is perfect. Ray goes into being angry without cause and hating are the same as murder. But god does not want anyone to go to Hell, so he became a man named Jesus and paid the fine for our sins. Ray says that we must listen to our conscience, realize the god is perfect and holy, has seen our thought life, and our temptation to sin is just as bad as sinning in God's eyes. Ray says that there is a way to know that you can achieve everlasting life - not just think and believe, but know - and that is to repent and trust in Jesus Christ and be "born-again" and get to know God personally. Ray tells the women to read their Bibles if they have any, because they should not believe everything they hear and there are a lot of lies out there (Ray actually said this). It ends there with Ray thanking them for taking the time to listen.

(16:27 - 17:36)

  • Kirk "When we talk of things like God's justice and God's law, sometimes we get uncomfortable. We think of those as negative things, but think of it this way. There is a town with no sheriff, there is no law in this town, the people of the town are committing all kinds of lawless acts; there is murder, there is rape, there's theft. People doing all kinds of things that make it a very awful place to live. The people are waiting for the law to come and bring justice to the land. And one day they hear the marshal is coming in on a horse and he is going to execute judgment, and he is going to bring justice to those lawless people. he comes into town and the people rejoice because now they know that justice is going to be served. In the same way, the Bible says this: that the trees of the field will clap their hands, that all the earth will rejoice before the Lord, for he comes to judge the earth and so will judge the world with righteousness and the people with his truth. When God does that, he is going to come in fury and in justice to execute Judgment, but those whose hearts had been made right with God have nothing to fear. They will rejoice that the Lord is coming to judge.

A personal challenge to Kirk Cameron: find one society that matches this ridiculous analogy. Every tribe of every sort has a civil system going back to ancient times. Sometimes, even in very lawful towns, acts like theft are seen as virtues - for instance, isn't Robin Hood considered a folk hero? He stole money and food for the poor citizens. You can point to a corrupt king and unethical law as the root of evil, but regardless theft is theft, and Robin Hood stole a lot. However, the people saw him as a hero or perhaps a saint.

Kirks remark of a single man coming into town to establish himself as judge, jury, and executioner without consulting the wishes, thoughts, desires of the inhabitants is a form of tyranny. The people may desire a portion of the bad people to be dealt with, but then suddenly this marshal establishes his own law that says women are inferior to men, and slavery is permitted [3] (which means that town residents can gain total control over their neighbors due to prejudice).

Also, since Kirk and Ray are Bible literalists - do they really think that trees have hands?

(17:37 - 18:20)

  • Ray "In fact the Bible says the Christians can have boldness on the day of Judgment. They can initially stand with boldness in front of God's justice because of the fact that the blood of Jesus Christ washes away our sins. You know, a wise man once said Kirk, 'law without consequence is nothing but good advice.' And you can get the most ungodly person to agree with the Ten Commandments. They will say yeah, you should not kill, that makes sense, it does destroy society. You shall not commit adultery, yeah that does destroy families. You shall not be a false witness, yeah lies do break down trusts and relationships. So they can agree with us that the law is good. But law without consequences are nothing but good advice. What we must do is say God has set aside a day when he will judge the world according to righteousness.

"because of the fact that the blood of Jesus..." what fact? Facts can be observed and verified by a third party. Where is the fact that sin is an actual real concept? Where is the fact, or the historical evidence, that Jesus of Nazareth actually lived, and therefore died? How do we know the reports of his death are trustworthy or solid, since all four of them contradict on how he died, and practically all of them go so far against how criminals were treated in 1st century Palestine.

"And you can get the most ungodly person to agree with the Ten Commandments." The most ungodly person would stop at Commandment Number One and shout "disagree" - that is what it means to be ungodly: no gods. Also, lies do more than break down trusts and relationships (Ray sure knows that one since he has a nasty habit of lying to non-Christians) but lies can also save people. If God sends a person to eternal punishment, just because he told a lie to hide a victim, then that makes God a moral monster. However, God does not punish all lies, otherwise he would have punished the founders of the 12 tribes of Judea, along with Ruth, but nope. Ruth was considered righteous, even though she was a liar.

(18:21 - 19:00)

  • Kirk "Now this next clip is really kind unique. It is kinda radical. Have you ever been in a public place and you are seeing people do things or start talking about things, and just inside you you shout and tell them the truth! ...without keeping it quite. Well, Jesus used to do that, and it kinda reminds me of the Book of Acts when Paul would shout out to the people in the open air and tell them the truth. Well, here is Ray Comfort talking about a very passionate issue with people. There is no microphone and no speakers, so he has got to raise his voice so people can hear him. now watch this, and watch how he uses it as an opportunity to share the gospel with them."

The only truth Ray will share is just as much truth as a Muslim telling the truth about Allah.

(19:00 - 22:50)

Ray is on top of a box, surrounded by a ring of people. Behind him as a long line of people dressed professionally with ties (possible Mormons, but who knows?). Ray shouts that we are all going to die, and it does not matter what color you are, what you have achieved in life, whether good or bad, whatever... we all die. Ray asks them if they ever thought to themselves why they are going to die? Ray says that if someone was pushing them to the edge of a cliff, surely people would ask the person why are they doing this? And if a person has any sense, they would do something about it before they reach the edge. Ray says that time is what is pushing us closer to death. Ray says that when we die, what happens is that we will face God - and Ray says that people will say 'cool, I always wondered what God looked like' - which Ray says is because they have no perception of God. Ray then points to a nearby crowd of dancing Ira Krishnas, and says "you may be a Ira Krishna, you cannot really figure what God is like. Maybe you are like Hinduism, Hinduism has something like 40 million gods - they cannot really figure out what is going on, but the Bible says there is one God." Ray says we have committed a grave crime against God, the universe has said we are guilty, and God has set aside a day of judgment for all of us. Ray then tells the people what to do, that the Bible says that God sent forth his son (God became a person in the flesh to live a perfect, sinless life) to die on a Cross to pay for our sins. Therefore, we do not have to sit around and try to "earn our way into Heaven" since the only way into heaven is to trust in Jesus Christ. Ray says Roman Catholics do not have to go back to mass to accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, because in so doing so shows that they think Christ's sacrifice was not good enough - rather Ray says that you just have to accept his sacrifice and be born again. Ray says salvation is a free gift, and you cannot earn a free gift. Ray says that we all have a choice "you have a choice, you can look at the Ira Krishna religion and see these little kids going up all over there, there is a face of a man, the face of a dog or a pig on the other side - what a blessing, come back as pig or a cow or a fly. Why? No, because the point after this is the Judgment. God offers you mercy if you repent. If you want to stay in your sins, that is your business but you are deceived. For by grace are you saved and through faith, and none of your selves is a gift from God and not of your works."

Reincarnation does not inevitably mean coming back as a cow or a fly, it can mean coming back as a better human being. Believers in reincarnation have not proved that it happens but Christians have not proved the Bible either.

(22:51 - 23:30)

  • Ray "You see we can say to people 'abortion is wrong, you should not do it.' They will say yeah, so what? But we must tell them that God has set aside a day to judge those who take the lives of children. He will judge right down to the thoughts, intents of men and women hearts, that is why they need to flee to Jesus Christ. This is what Paul preached, he said 'God commands all men everywhere to repent, because he has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness.'"

Saying abortion, golf, or whatever is wrong because my belief in a magical sky figure will judge you without a shred of proof of this is just as valid as saying universal sky pixies has set aside a day to judge those who failed to provide full rights to women to control their own bodies.

"God commands all men" what about women? More to the point, so God is "commanding" us to do something. This is a clear form of dictatorship. And if we choose not to corroborate, and offend his ego, he punishes us for the freedom of choice. How can any sane ethical person submit to a being that orders the genocide of innocent children just because four men worshiped God in their own way? (see I Samuel 6).

(23:31 - 24:11)

  • Ray next to one of the cannons by the Santa Monica pier "A number of years ago, a friend of mine who was working on the epic film Gettysburg invited me to his home for a meal. After the meal, we went into his living room and actually watched he film before it was released. He played the soundtrack so loud that pushed the skin back on my face. But the thing that intrigued me was the way that they used cannons in Gettysburg. They would fire them over the heads of their own troops and terrorize the enemy, and then they would send in their ground troops. Ten cannons of God's law are meant to terrorize sinners. When God gave his law on Mount Sinai, the Bible says so terrible was the sight that Moses said I exceedingly fear and quake. You see, when we realize that we have sinned against God, it puts the fear of God in our hearts, and the Bible says through the fear of God the Lord, men depart from sin."

The only thing the Ten Commandments terrorize are the gullible, simple, uneducated minds. There is no reason to fear what does not exist.

(24:13 - 24:59)

  • Ray "Who would have thought the Ten Commandments had any relevance in the gospel of proclamation, and who would have thought the sixth Commandment "You Shall Not Kill" had any relevance in bringing somebody to Christ. Well it does. Whoever has anger without cause, or whoever hated someone. So if we want to reach out to our friends and family and our neighbors and our work mates to Christ, what we must do is reach out to them. Whoever is proud, arrogant and self-righteous, give him the law. Humble of heart, give them the gospel. How do you do that? Simply say, 'do you consider yourself to be a good person?' If someone says no, I'm bad I have broken the Ten Commandments and if I died I don't know whether I would go to Heaven or Hell, don't give them the law, give them the gospel. But if they are proud, arrogant, and self-righteous and say I am a good person, then give them the Ten Commandments."

Who would have thought the 8 Paths of Buddhism had any relevance to Buddha and his teachings, or the 5 Pillars of Islam had any relevance to Allah and the Koran? Seriously Ray, do you ever put any thought into this stuff?

Practically everything Ray and Kirk and WOTM argues can easily be turned on its head when comparing it to any other religion, let alone if you simply ask for a shred of evidence to bring forth. Thus far, everything WOTM has provided is all talk.

People proud or humble can be targeted by the 8 Paths of Buddhism or even Satanism. It does not matter, any religion can appeal to any group. It is not important how much of an influence a religion has, but whether or not if it is true. And thus far, all religions are based on faith - belief with little to no evidence.

(25:00 - 26:11)

  • Kirk "Now, if you want to do this and begin a conversation about the gospel, sometimes it is a little awkward to make the transition, but one way that I found very helpful is a creative gospel tract that we print up at our ministry. It looks like a million dollar bill, but it is very realistic looking. And if you want to give it to someone, just say hey did you get one of these? Most people will say oh no, this is great, thanks. And you can say yeah, but if you look at the back there is a gospel tract and it has a gospel message written around the edges. People will see it and say ah that is is interesting and then you can as them hey, do you have a Christian background? or let me ask you a question: do you consider yourself to be a good person?. And that is an easy way to get into the subject, and then most people will say yeah, I do. Well have you ever told a lie? Go through a few of the Commandments, ask them if they have lied, stolen, look with lust, if they have ever hated someone (committing murder in the eyes of God), show them their guilt -----" Kirk is cut off by Ray. Ray says "Kirk, are people offended when you say that to them?" Kirk says, "No. I thought that they would be, I think I have created this monster in my own mind that people are going to say how dare you ask me these questions!? But the truth is, most people appreciate the fact that you're interested, and that they can have a stimulating conversation about things that everyone thinks about. Life and death, whether or not they are a good person?"

The bill with the gospel tract is laced with questions taken straight from the old are you a good person? tactic. Masking a Gospel tract as a dollar bill is a bit deceitful and the tracts have been mistaken for legal tender, see June 6th [4].

The shame is that Kirk does not have in his head a monster telling him: why do you keep lying to these strangers?

(26:12 - 26:22)

  • Ray "and remember, the conscience is on your side. The conscience will bear witness with the Commandments. And that is why people will not be offended, they know it is wrong to lie, to steal, and hate, to commit adultery. See the conscience affirms the truth of the Commandments."

The only things the Commandments bear with is someone who upholds moral absolutes. In their eyes, killing is wrong, but the problem is how far does it go? Is killing animals okay? Is war the answer? Is self-defense murder? Actually, Ray revealed in a debate that self-defense is NOT murder, but at the same time said killing IS murder. So Ray actually contradicts himself. This is why having moral absolutes is dangerous.

(26:23 - 26:58)

  • Kirk "And people often feel uncomfortable going through the Commandments because they know that they are guilty and they wonder where on earth are you going with this conversation? But once their heart has been humbled and they see their need of God's forgiveness, and that they are guilty before him, then they will appreciate and appropriate the cure through the power of the Holy Spirit. And then you can bring them through the Cross, to repentance and faith in Christ, and people can say wow, that makes sense, thank you for sharing that with me. I never understood why Jesus died on the Cross. What do I need to do?"

Some of the Commandments are about matters considered wrong in all ethical systems like stealing, others are pointless for people who do not believe in Judaism or Christianity. Just as Ray happily ignores 4 of the 5 pillars of Islam, so can others look for a system of Secular morality and ignore rules like keeping the Sabbath that are not part of any universal morality. (Giving alms or charitable giving is one of the 5 pillars and is part of Christian and secular morality as well.) Ray does not accept that 4 of the 5 Pillars of Islam have any relevance and he does not accept them as true because 1) he is already a Christian and 2) he sees no evidence that they really matter. The important point is point number 2. This is the same problem with the Ten Commandments - no evidence to support those that are not part of a universal moral system. What Kirk calls humbling a person's heart others would call breaking a person's self respect.

(26:59 - 27:44)

  • Ray "It's amazing how many will shake your hand and say thank you very much. I never heard this before. Isn't that true?" Kirk says, "yeah, its true. People have said to me I have been going to church my whole life, and I never really understood why Jesus died on the Cross. I mean, I knew he died for my sins, but I never really understood what that meant and I did not understand why Jesus was the only way into Heaven, but now I do." Back to Ray, "so we are serious about reaching this world with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Lets pick up those Commandments and use them as Jesus did, to bring the gospel to this dying world. And if it will help, get a hold of a few gospel tracks, we have them on our website." They end it with telling them to go to their website and check out their resources.

Seems unlikely that someone can go to church their whole life and not know the basics of their religion, unless they were too busy texting in the far back row from the altar and put a magazine in their Bibles.

We cannot rule out the possibility that Kirk just made all that up but Christians sometimes fail to understand their own religion. Ray and Kirk are no exception, they repeatedly get the meaning of the Ten Commandments incorrect - it is not wrong to lie, Jesus told his disciples to steal a horse, blaspheme is taking Yahweh's name in vain - not simply saying OMG, and such. Ray and Kirk make no attempt to correct their mistakes. Also, they seem unaware of the huge lack of any evidence to support any of their beliefs. Instead of learning more, Ray and Kirk tend to undermine the education of others - this is why they try to denounce science altogether and "try to speak to the conscience and circumnavigate the intellect" to avoid rational discussion in favor of arguments laced with fallacies and superstition.

Final Remarks from Iron Chariots[]

As already noted, Ray Comfort stated in a debate with thunderf00t that self-defense does not constitute murder. Where is that in the Bible? Neither Ray or Kirk say anything about war. What about euthanasia requested by the terminally ill? The drawback of this law is absoluteness — good laws make distinctions. Since the actions and commands of God burst with bloodthirstiness, this commandment seems to lose its import. Besides, prohibitions of murder existed long before the Ten Commandments or the Israelites appeared on the scene. It is not as if the human race never would have figured out that it is wrong to kill without some tablets coming down from a mountain. Laws against murder and manslaughter based on self-preservation and social stability have found their way into almost every culture before and after Moses, and it would be odd if the Israelites did not have a similar principle.

Lets say for instance, a man has an unknown complicated disease or tumor somewhere in his body that causes him to hallucinate or receives a sudden burst of adrenaline to the point he is not in full control. This man tragically kills another human (who did not provoke anyone or had any negative ties to his attacker). It is only many years later is it revealed that the man is not completely well, and for this whole time he was judged to have killed another person in cold blood. What does Ray's absolute morality say about this? The man, even though sick, killed another person. Ray Comfort could not distinguish killing another person and murder (except in the case of self-defense). So by Ray's argument, our hypothetical sick man is completely guilty. He killed another man, despite it not being his fault.

What about war? It is never mentioned in this program, and Ray makes a great effort to not talk about the subject outside this program. Well, what does the Bible say? It is too easy to find a tale in the Bible where God himself kills scores to millions of people, or commands others to slaughter another individual or even entire nations.

What about instances where people kill another person because God specifically told them to do so? This is otherwise known as the divine command theory, whatever God commands, his followers must obey. This means God can command murder (just like he did in the Bible), as well as genocide, infanticide, and more. Anyone can find Christians all throughout history that killed others because God command them to do so. Ex. Ron Lafferty killed a mother and her baby daughter, found guilty during the trial, which was countered by theologians and others because it implied anyone who talks to God is crazy (since the whole Mormon faith relies on talking to God they could be considered legally insane). After going through months of psychotherapy, it was later ruled he was competent to stand trial.

So, if God commanded Ray to kill another, would he do it? On the Way of the Master radio show, on the subject why does God kill babies, the speaker Mike Spencer answered "God does whatever he wants" (that was his exact answer, even though Spencer knew and acknowledged the person who asked this question would not like the answer). So even Way of the Master acknowledges that God can do whatever he pleases; and if this includes killing babies, it most certainly includes having his devoted followers kill other people in his name.

Ray, surely, would be quick to play the No True Scotsman fallacy. Basically, calling those who kill as "not real Christians." Unfortunately for Ray, that does not cut it. There are wide varieties of Christians, all different based on their interpretation of the Bible, and they often brand others as heretics (even some Christians brand Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron as heretics). As to the Christians who do commit murder, are they acting anything that was even slightly mentioned in the Bible? absolutely. Even Jesus himself told people to kill in his name. Luke 19 Jesus told a parable which includes these ruthless words: “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring them hither, and slay them before me.” He is clearly comparing the “Lord” in the parable to himself. [5] In Matthew 10:34 Jesus said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword.” In Luke 22:36 he told his disciples that “he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.”

In Matthew 19:12, showing his pro-life sensibilities, Jesus encourages castration: “There be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” Modern believers are eager to interpret this verse figuratively. The New International Version loosely (and hopefully) translates “Made eunuch” as “renounced marriage.” But the literal meaning is “castrate” and many devout Christian men in history have done it themselves, including the early church father Origen and entire monastic orders. Jesus gives no indication that he is speaking in a parable, or that his words mean anything order than what he said. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. This is no moral percept—this is sick. Castration keeps babies from being born just as effectively as abortion, so why aren’t pro-lifers picketing churches that follow Jesus?

So it is pretty, clear: the Bible, Jesus, and God do not absolutely disprove of murder. They often allow it, encourage it, command it, and endorse it in the Old Testament and even in the New Testament. All this coming from a book written by men (not God) who believed they were in the end times. While Ray Comfort and other Christians can point out some verses that are jolly and peaceful, all this proves is that much of the Bible's appeals depends on its countless moral inconsistencies which enable almost anyone to find passages that endorse their particular view. Some find passages to support their bigotry, their thirst for blood, while others focus on passages endorsing peace and acceptance. But books that endorse all viewpoints ultimately endorse none.

Non-Christians who cite biblical cruelties are often accused of cherry-picking. In fact, non-Christians can freely acknowledge both kindness and cruelties in the Bible. Christians far too often ignore and overlook the immoral content of religious scripture, and they are truly cherry-picking, that should concern any decent person. Theists who discard the less palatable parts of Scripture should at least be honest about the standards by which they do this and concede that they are applying their own independent judgment to Scripture. Obviously when we use our own moral sense to separate good and bad in Scripture, when we revise our interpretation of it to reflect the more enlightened view of our time, it is not Scripture guiding our morality. It is our morality guiding our perception of Scripture.

Claiming that God is mysterious, way beyond our understanding, and such does not cut it either. Saying that we do not understand how making people eat their children is an acceptable punishment even if it is ordered by a god, is an inexcusable abdication of critical judgment. There are several references to this in the Old Testament though it is frequently unclear if the parents killed the children first or waited till the children died of starvation. [6] But if there is a person who argues that God works in mysterious ways, ways that utterly contradict our notions of moral behavior, then according to that God’s nature is clearly not the source of our morality. According to the Bible Yahweh inflicts familial cannibalism as just punishment [7] [8], yet we would call any human who provides such a law depraved. These positions are therefore in direct conflict, and invoking divine mystery does nothing to resolve that conflict.

External Links[]

The Way of the Master
Season One Episodes:

1. The Firefighter   2. The Mirror of the Ten Commandments   3. The Motive of the Sinner   4. The Summary of Salvation   5. Practice What You Preach   6. Idolatry—The Darling Sin of Humanity   7. The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism   8. WDJD?   9. Blasphemy, Sabbath, Parents   10. Murder   11. Adultery   12. Theft   13. Lie and Covet

Season Two Episodes:

1. God's Wonderful Plan   2. Conscience   3. Alcatraz, Al Capone, Alcohol   4. True and False Conversion   5. When Things Go Wrong   6. The Satanic Influence   7. How to Witness to Someone Who's Homosexual/Gay   8. Evolution   9. How to Witness to a Loved One   10. The Fear of God   11. Ice Breakers—Gospel Tracts   12. The Greatest Gamble  13. How to Get on Fire for God

Season Three Episodes:

1. Battle for the Lost   2. Where Has the Passion Gone?   3. Joe Average   4. Caught in a Lie   5. The Divine Butler   6. Why Christianity?   7. Jehovah's Witness   8. Mormonism   9. Are You A Genius?   10. Last Words of the Rich and Famous   11. How to Find God's Will   12. What Scares You   13. Hollywood Be Thy Name

Ray Comfort — Kirk Cameron

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