True and False Conversion is the title of the fourth episode from season two of The Way of the Master.

Episode Synopsis[]

(00:00 - 00:10)

The show starts off with Ray presenting, they are in San Fransisco and the topic of the program.

Episode Walkthrough[]

(00:41 - 01:08)

Scene shows an evangelical interviewing a blond man who was previously a baptized Christian now a nonbeliever. The reasons he presents were due to certain bad things that happened in his life and does not plan to convert or read the Bible again. Scene fades.

At least we got a chance to meet a person who walked to the rational side.

(01:09 - 02:16)

  • Kirk shares a story of a friend of his who, after many years, recently met the best man of his wedding. When they got together, and the guy says a lot has changed: he is getting married and he is no longer a Christian. He said if there was a God, then there would be a true change in life in Christians. He saw no change in life than those inside and outside the church. Kirk says the question is: is he right?

Yes, he is right. Religion does not make you a better person. Many would argue that it could make you worse. If it were not for religion, certain parents would not try to murder their children to spare them the misery of the world and get them to enter Heaven. There are numerous examples of religion turning normal people and families down a road to atrocities and violence. Ray himself admitted that he would vote to take away a woman's right to her own body due to his religious beliefs.

Even if religion or belief system has changed people’s lives for the better doesn’t mean that the teachings or doctrines of the system must be true and infallible. Nor do they erase all other similar testimonials of all other religions and belief systems. Second, what these Christians also NEVER acknowledge or even realize is that there are also MANY people whose lives were changed for the better through other religions or systems of belief. Anyone could EASILY bring up the SAME kind evidence of changed lives and testimonials from other belief systems, religions, pop psychology fads, self-help groups, Alcoholics Anonymous groups, New Age sects, Wiccans, even from Atheists/Agnostics, etc. Practitioners of Buddhism, Islam, New Age, alternative non-organized spirituality, etc. can testify that their lives had been changed for the better in many ways as a result of their beliefs/practices.

Also, many people throughout history have sincerely tried the Christian faith, found it lacking or unfulfilling, and then left it too. Many of these deconverts were sincere, believed in and loved Jesus with all their heart, etc. Yet, for one reason or another, the faith failed them. It either didn’t live up to its promise, was too closed-minded for their evolving minds which sought to broaden itself, didn’t make sense, had too many contradictions/discrepancies to continue rationalizing away, etc. Although there are no exact statistics for the number of people who convert and deconvert from Christianity each year, it may be safe to say that the number of deconverts is nearly as many as the converts. Christianity is increasing in third world countries where levels of education are low. In industrial countries where levels of education are higher Christianity is declining, that means in the west there are more deconverts than converts.

(2:17 - 2:51)

  • Ray says a number of years ago a poll once showed that 62% of the American population believed that Christ gave meaning to their lives. Another poll showed that 91% of the American population lie regularly. He says that something is "radically" wrong. He says he found some statistics and quotes on an atheist website. The quotes from Banner Organization. The website concludes that "Christianity does not work as Advertised."

Lying is not wickedness. Lying can be used to save lives or protect people. There is no law against lying, nor is there a crime for minor lying unless it is perjury. Only in court is lying forbidden.

(02:52 - 05:26)

Scene switch to the article on a computer screen. The article notes that 1 in 4 Americans get divorced, and Christians are more likely to get a divorce than non-Christians. Scene switch back to Ray and Kirk.

What they did not show was the report said "born-again Christians" are more likely to get a divorce than non-born-agains.

  • Kirk says that people are promised that Jesus will solve their problems and struggles. So how do these Christians continue to struggle? Is it because Christianity has no power to change lives? Or is there another explanation? They provide a quote by A. W. Tozer,

"It is my opinion that tens of thousands of people, if not millions, have been brought into some kind of religious experience by accepting Christ, and they have not been saved."

It can be proven that the mind can produce many varieties of religious experiences that feel so real, but Tozer, Comfort and Cameron, have no way to test or prove the salvation promised in the Bible and neither does anyone else. In fact, it can be shown that the Bible does not provide salvation because it is a book with many false claims in it.

Kirk says that Tozer is saying that people go to church, have some special experience when they accept Jesus, but are not really saved. They never truly humbled themselves and truly repented of their sins. They have not truly converted their hearts. He then provides a quote from Dr. D. James Kennedy,

"The vast majority of people who are members of churches in America today are not Christians. I say that without the slightest fear of contradiction. I base it on the empirical evidence of twenty-four years of examining thousands of people."

If real Christians are not liars, then that rules out Ray and Kirk, since they lie about science and other religions daily.

Kirk repeats that Kennedy says that millions of people within the church are not Christians. Kennedy bases his claims of examining their lives to determine if their hearts have truly been converted.

By what criteria did Kennedy use to measure their lives? If we have a good Christian decide to refuse all medical care that could save them from a deadly virus and painfully die in several days later (and that untreated virus spreads from them to their children and neighbors) does Kennedy consider that person a genuine Christian?

(05:27 - 08:48) Scene switches to interviewing three women, mainly focusing on one who shares that when she is around friends God seems second. Next, interview with three men, again one in particular. Ray takes this one man down the are you a good person? routine.

(08:49 - 09:58)

  • Ray says the bible addresses the problem of true and false conversion. Jesus said that good tree does not bring forth bad fruit, neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Ray then shows Mark 4:3-8, which talk about true and false conversion.

Mark 4:11-12 "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell.

Mark 4:31 "Mustard seed, which ... is less than all the seeds that be in the earth." Jesus is incorrect when he says that the 1mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The smallest seeds are found among the tropical, epiphytic orchids.

(09:59 - 10:47)

  • Kirk says the disciples did not understand this parable, then Jesus replied if you do not understand this parable how can you understand ALL the parables? Kirk says in the parable of the sower, there were three scenarios where the seed did not flourish, and the parable means where the gospel is sown there will be true and false conversions.

Kirk does not even try to show that his claim is in anyway accurate. Does he understand the parable "Consider the lily" or "This wine is my blood." There are over 30,000 different denominations within Christianity that interpret the bible in many incompatible way, so how does Kirk justify his views of tis parable over others? In Matthew 13:35 "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world." is actually a misquote of Ps.78:2-3 which says: "I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us."

(10:48 - 12:16)

  • Ray says that many think he parable means that wherever the gospel is preached, there is a 25% chance of success. Ray does not think Jesus would provide parable for evangelism with a 25% positive chance. Ray thinks there is a key in the parable. Ray say the "good soil" hears and understands (that he has sinned and needs the Savior). Romans 3:11 says that there were none who understand or what does bring about understanding. [1] Ray concludes it is the Law, the Ten Commandments, which is why Paul said "I have not known sin, but by the law..."

Street interview: One 2 One[]

(12:32 - 16:04)

Shows Ray interviewing a couple. The lady is not a "regular" Christian, that is she has been busy and had no time for church or reading the Bible, but she does pray. When Ray asks them how to get into Heaven, they answer be good and follow the Ten Commandments. With that, Ray takes them down the are you a good person? routine. At the end, they would bet their life on the belief God is forgiving. Scene then skips, and Ray uses his court analogy that the couple is found guilty by the judge, but a man walks in and pays your fine. That is what Jesus did.


(16:06 - 17:20)

Takes place with Kirk sitting on a chair in a room.

Kirk asks what do you say to a person who acknowledges they have sinned by are not worried because they think god is forgiving? Kirk says that they misunderstand the nature of god's justice. Kirk says God is forgiving, but only to those who repent of their sins. Kirk says ask them if they would die today, where would they go? Next, use the are you a good person? tactic. Kirk says those who do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus will pay for their own sins themselves by spending an eternity in hell.

So God picks and choose amongst his creations of who to save. Does he save animals? Does God play favorites?

(17:23 - 18:03)

Scene switches beck to Ray and Kirk back in San Fransisco.

Ray "False converts do have a measure of spirituality. Take Judas for an example, he seemed to be a true follower of Jesus Christ." When Jesus said that one of you will betray me, the other disciples knew who he was talking about, rather the asked "Is it I?" After the signs, some disciples did not suspect Judas. Ray concludes that Christians are not aware of other Christians who fall into the Judas category.

Judas is just a fictional character. To many, Judas is not seen as a false convert, he is seen as a hero. If it were not for the betrayal of Judas, Jesus would not have been caught, put on trial, crucified, and saved the world from sin.

(18:04 - 18:52)

  • Kirk says it is a tragedy that there are millions of people in church who think they are Christians, but live in sin and fall away, and do not fit into the "backslider" category but false conversions. Kirk says it is impossible to slide back if you never went forward. Kirk says that Christians show the legitimacy or the illegitimacy by the fruits they produce. They use the example of a man they interviewed in New York City and pay attention to the "fruit" he produced and asks the audience to decide if this is the fruit of a true conversion?

(18:53 - 23:38)

Scene switches to the interview with the man. He is a black man wearing a cap beneath his hood, while smoking. He is dressed nice, but has a tooth missing. He holds up hand gestures and wears jewelry. When asks what he think happens when someone dies, he says it is like falling asleep. When Ray asked him where he got his information from, the guy says life experience and he was "basically" killed once. Scene switches to Ray taking the man down the are you a good person? routine. When asked what do you call someone who lies, the man three times said a human being, and just as he was born black we are all born liars and sinners. Repeatably calling himself a human being, Ray ignores him and when they get to "look at a woman with lust" the man says he done that, and noting he has committed every sin possible. The man says he drinks, looks at women, and such because he is simply human. Ray says he does not want the man to go to hell, but suddenly the scene cuts off there. Possibly because Ray lost that one or the man said something Ray does not want the audience to hear. The scene comes back with Ray saying God will punish hypocrites, but the man says a hypocrite is someone who promises not to do something again, but then goes on and does it. The man never said that he would stop doing something. When asked why would he continue to repeat his habits, the man says because that is who he is. When Ray asked if possibly God is giving the man a sign because Ray is here, the man says that possibly, but he does not know who Ray is or what he is doing here (or perhaps could be a sign of deception). When Ray tells the man Jesus died on the cross for him, the man said he knows and he is already saved and will be in Heaven. He told Ray that he will do his thing and Ray will do his. When Ray asked if he read the bible, the man said he did, in fact the previous day he read Revelations. Ray tells him to read Matthew 7, but the man says he wants to read what is going on today, not what happened back in the day. The scene ends there with the man giving his farewells and shaking Ray and the crews hands.

This is perhaps the most well prepared person Ray has ever interviewed for his programs yet. The man knows that he is human and embraces it. Religious people are always talking about limiting and controlling their behavior, such as not looking at woman and such, and yet do it anyway. Why then pretend to be something you are not and distance yourself from natural instinct? The man also has a point about Revelations. Back in Jesus day, if you read Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Well, Jesus said then that the world would end in his listeners lifetime, and if has not. So why read and depend on a book that holds so many false promises? Granted the book of Revelation is no better, but the man does acknowledge if he wants to know about modern times he should read the one that talks about modern times.

(23:39 - 24:48)

  • Kirk says that we must understand then when the gospel is preached many will respond but there will be false converts - that is people who say they are Christians, but never truly converted in their heart. Kirk calls them hypocrites and pretenders, and true and false Christians will remain side by side together in the church. Kirk says when we understand the sowing parable, the others make sense: like the wheat that tears (true and false conversions), the good fish and the bad fish (true and false conversions), the foolish versions and the wide versions (again, true and false conversions).

Wake Up Call[]

(25:04 - 26:18)

  • Ray "Let me ask you a question. Do you fear God? The Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom {Psalm 111:10). Let me show you a picture from NASA that helped me fear God." Shows a picture of the sun, with a little blue dot on the corner (that is earth according to Ray). In between the sun and earth is a flare of great proportions according to the angle of the picture. Ray goes on"did you know the earth could fit into the surface of the sun a million times. What sort of being could create something like that? What sort of being could create the sun? God is to be held in tremendous reverence and awe, and sinners have to face him on the day of Judgment. The Bible says "it is a fearful thing to fall in the hands of the living God." The Apostle Paul spoke the fear of the Lord when he said "therefore knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." Now there is a good motive for evangelism. Once you know the terror of the Lord, you persuade men. And if you are not evangelizing, if you are not seeking the lost, it is evident you don't fear God. You need to get on your knees and say 'oh god, give me a revelation of your holiness, your greatness, your might power so I can fear you enough to obey you and seek and save that which is lost.'"

Why should we fear something that does not exist? Several passages in the bible tell us not to fear at all (2 Timothy 1:7 and 1 John 4:18) When Ray says "What sort of being could create the sun?" he is asking the wrong question by implying a being. The question is not who created the sun, but what. How did the sun come about,ask already pointed out to Ray science has already proven that the sun and stars form naturally and have mapped out the steps and requirements to create a sun. Ray appeals to emotion and does not provide any proof at all for the Day of Judgment or for any of his other claims. Without any proof, Ray is no more credible tan a mad man raving on top a soapbox.

(26:19 - 27:07)

Scene switches to Ray and Kirk back in San Fransisco.

  • Ray "the Bible tells us that one of the disciples asked Jesus 'are we the few who are saved?' Jesus responded 'strive to enter the straight gate.' The straight gate is the narrow way that leads to life, and few will be who find it. He said broad is the path that leads to destruction, and many go in that way. So this should cause us to examine ourselves, and the Bible says 'and see in the upper faith.' And if you are not sure that you are saved, if you are doubting your salvation, if you do not have the things that accompany salvation, make your corn lecture sure. Do it today. Confess and forsake your sins, trust in Jesus and bring forth fruit that is worthy of salvation. And make sure when you share your faith you do it biblicaly because you and I do not want to be guilty of filling the church with false conversions.

If you trust God you have no reason to fear him, if you fear God you cannot trust him completely.

(27:08 - 27:40)

  • Kirk "Please, consider of going to our website." Kirk tells the audience get the Way of the Master book, tools, the Evidence Bible, and such.

In order to be saved you must evangelize and if you buy Ray and Kirk's products you are more likely to add to the cash those two are raking in evangelize effectively and save yourself from hell.

Don't bother giving these guys any attention. As seen, their words and arguments are meaningless and baseless.

External Link[]

Google video

See Also[]

The Way of the Master
Season One Episodes:

1. The Firefighter   2. The Mirror of the Ten Commandments   3. The Motive of the Sinner   4. The Summary of Salvation   5. Practice What You Preach   6. Idolatry—The Darling Sin of Humanity   7. The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism   8. WDJD?   9. Blasphemy, Sabbath, Parents   10. Murder   11. Adultery   12. Theft   13. Lie and Covet

Season Two Episodes:

1. God's Wonderful Plan   2. Conscience   3. Alcatraz, Al Capone, Alcohol   4. True and False Conversion   5. When Things Go Wrong   6. The Satanic Influence   7. How to Witness to Someone Who's Homosexual/Gay   8. Evolution   9. How to Witness to a Loved One   10. The Fear of God   11. Ice Breakers—Gospel Tracts   12. The Greatest Gamble  13. How to Get on Fire for God

Season Three Episodes:

1. Battle for the Lost   2. Where Has the Passion Gone?   3. Joe Average   4. Caught in a Lie   5. The Divine Butler   6. Why Christianity?   7. Jehovah's Witness   8. Mormonism   9. Are You A Genius?   10. Last Words of the Rich and Famous   11. How to Find God's Will   12. What Scares You   13. Hollywood Be Thy Name

Ray Comfort — Kirk Cameron

Copied from Iron Chariots